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Zakuska

"I am Yahweh: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another" (Is 42:8)

Excellent verse huh?

Pavadinimas

Isaiah 42:8 (NASB)
"I am the LORD, that is My name;
I will not give My glory to another,
Nor My praise to graven images."

Zakuska

So why does it contradict John ?

"And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one" (Jn 17:22)

In Isaiah YHWH says he will give his Glory to no one. Then In John he turns around and does just that. Why the contradiction?

Josiah

I'm a tad lost as to what our Mormon friend Zakuska is trying to say here, but...

Anyway, without any study at all, off the top of my head...

Isaiah 42:8

One of Isaiah's themes is monotheism and the soverignty of God. God is God indeed! Isaiah condemns idols and so-called "gods." God won't "share" anything with these pretense! This theme in Isaiah may well be the point here - and nothing more. God alone is God. God alone deserves glory (this, however, does not preclude some aspect of this being given by God by grace to one whom He desires to bestow rather than to one who claims to be a god - an idol).

However, Isaiah 42:1-9 is one of the Messianic sections, alluded to in Matthew 12:18-21, referring to Jesus. I think 42:8 is simply saying that Jesus will have God's glory (no surprise since He has a divine nature). In what sense the Father "gave" glory to the Son - I don't know, but there are other verses that allude to that, too. Several NT verses speak of Jesus having "glory" (John 13:31-32 pops immediately to mine). The verse ("...no other...") could be indicating there will be no other Messiah, no other Incarnation since that seems to be the context here.

John 17:22

In John 17:22 it seems Jesus, in some sense, gives glory to His believers. Again, exactly what this means or entails, I don't know. It may well be an aspect of our salvation - the eternal life which the chapter begins by stressing is ours by grace. Glory that is ours because, by the grace of God alone, we are His adopted children, members of His household.

BTW, note the emphasis on given, granted... - not earned or deserved, a theme that rings very loudly here.

I see no contradiction.

MY view...

Keep the faith! Share the love!

PS. Just a friendly reminder that discussions of Mormon beliefs are to be kept to the Other Beliefs Forum...

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Zakuska · Last edited by Zakuska on Thu Sep 29, 2005 6:20 pm; edited 1 time in total

You see no contradiction because of the thick scales on your eyes.

God flat out says his Glory is his an nobody elses, and he wont share it with Idols wthere they be stone or wood or mere men.

You can spin all you want Josaih. The Bible says what it says.

Rev. 2: 7
7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the aSpirit saith unto the churches; To him that bovercometh• will I give to eat of the ctree• of life, which is in the midst of the dparadise of God.

Rev. 2: 11
11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second adeath.

Rev. 2: 17
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that aovercometh• will I give to eat of the hidden bmanna, and will give him a cwhite• dstone, and in the stone a new ename• written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Rev. 2: 26
26 aAnd• he that bovercometh•, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give cpower• over the nations:

Rev. 3: 5
5 He that aovercometh•, the same shall be clothed in bwhite craiment•; and I will not dblot out his name out of the ebook of life, but I will fconfess• his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Rev. 3: 12
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the aname• of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is bnew Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Rev. 3: 21
21 To him that aovercometh• will I grant to bsit• with me in my cthrone•, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

God can only Give something to those who merit it.

I put this in Tough Questions because its just that.

Josiah

Zakuska

First you brought it up... Perhaps you would like to make a thread.

Second... Why would it need to go there. Is the Gift not bibilical? I havent quoted anything uniquely Mormon here.

Revelation 22:14
Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

Sure looks like it earned to me!

Pavadinimas

Pavadinimas

Zakuska

Yes it is speaking of Idols... but according to Christians anything but the one true God is an idol. Is it not?

1 Cor 8
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are dall things, and we by him.

Thus how can anyone but God have the Glory? He claims it for his very own. Nobody else can have it.

What I see is a Double standard here. Christians quote Isaiah 43:10 to me all the time and I give the same apologetic you just did. And then I get accused of taking thigs out of Context. Yet when I do the same thing Im accused of the same thing. What Gives?

If Isaiah is speaking of Idols in this Place what makes him not speaking of Idols in the other?

Pavadinimas

Zakuska

Read it again:

Isaiah 42:8 (NASB)
"I am the LORD, that is My name;
I will not give My glory to another,
Nor My praise to graven images."

His Glory he will not give to another (ie anyone),

His praise he will not give to "graven images".

Twist and contort all you want... the Bible says what it says.

Pavadinimas

Zakuska

And anything but him are "gods" (ie Idols) Yet God gave this Glory to his son and the Nation according to John, Who according to you are mere Idols.

Pavadinimas

Zakuska

How can a mere stone or a carved piece of wood receive Gods glory?

Pavadinimas

Zakuska

But does some one who worships the Idol diminish and steal Gods glory in any way by so doing? I think not.

Pavadinimas · Last edited by Pavadinimas on Fri Sep 30, 2005 5:15 pm; edited 1 time in total

Zakuska

Deserves?

He has all the Glory already. And he says he wont give it to anybody else then turns a round and does just that.