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 Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 10:11 am |
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| BerberCarpet |
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| tricky, in another thread, wrote: | This is the very reason I stopped attending my youth group. It was so unwelcoming.
And, there's something else, too. It seems to me, that rejection from the church crowd holds a bigger emotional consequence than rejection from other crowds. These are, after all, the people with whom you are supposed to be sharing God, a very intimate experience. It's like rejection from a lover, in a way. Not to mention the fact, that church crowds are so darn good at rejection, and doing it group-wide. I have found that many churches are like giant rumor mills. If you get rejected at all, you get rejected ALL THE WAY. |
i put this in mature stuff, because it is not "hot" -- in that no disciple of jesus' could agree that the above statement about "our people" is the way it should be.
rather, all would say it is not to be this way.
so, what is it that prevents us from being the grace-filled, friendly, welcoming crowd that jesus himself clearly was?
plankeye
Matthew 7:1 “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. 3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.
(most people stop quoting this little section there, but jesus didn't stop there....)
6 “Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you.
i see a few things in there that, by and large, are missed, through lack of sheer studying, as far as i can tell.
first: judgment IS the plank in our own eye.
as soon as we stop trying to correct other people's behavior, we are freed, by grace, to love them.
as soon as we stop trying to force them into doing what they can't, they'll stop feeling (and being!) judged.
as soon as we stop trying to "force feed" our "pearls of heavenly knowledge" to pigs...
you know that pigs can't eat pearls, right?
...they'll stop trying to bite us.
judgment is something that only ONLY only god can do.
but, we want people to change, right?
we want them to come to the place we are, where pearls are appreciated, and treasured, not rejected?
how do we do that, if not by judging?
Matthew 7:7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. 9 Or which one of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? 11 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!
asking for things is the key to obtaining what you want, in the kingdom of god.
you ask the father for things, so ask his kids.
simply turning your attitude from "demanding/shoving" to "asking" will make all the difference.
of course, to get rid of this judging and contemptive attitude, really, you need to go back to the passages of the sermon on the mount that lead up to it -- the things where jesus teaches us how to be of his mind:
in reverse order:
do not be anxious
lay up treasures in heaven
fasting
how to pray
giving to the needy
loving your enemies
retaliation
oaths
divorce
lust
anger
...in all these little passages are deep deep mysteries of kingdom life -- and the one follows the other: he put them in order for a reason.
once you have "worked out your salvation" in this order, and have (all with christ's help) managed to lose judging, you are then, spiritually able to move on to:
the golden rule
the golden rule simply can't be "done" apart from living out the sermon on the mount's teachings.
but, through the spirit, if you seek to obey christ's teachings in the sermon on the mount, by the time you're ready to give up judging, you're nature has changed so much that you are more than ready and willing to start doing to people -- really and truly -- what you wish they would do to you.
i could talk for hours about this, but i must get going on my day's work. |
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| Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 4:34 pm |
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| rabidrabit |
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| Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:00 pm |
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| BerberCarpet |
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| rabidrabit wrote: | | good post |
thanks |
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| Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:06 pm |
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| Mikalee |
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I am planning to write an article called "Position vs Condition" in response to a few topics around (mainly Tricky's topic about the difference w Christians and non-Christians). It will very much apply to this topic too. I think once people can really grasp what I want to explain (which I learned recently), it would revolutionize how you interact with others and God (as it did for me and others I know).
So...good topic, I will be back soon, hopefully.
Mike |
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| Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:42 pm |
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| FreedByTruth |
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BerberCarpet  |
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_________________
Through Gods great love Christ was treated as we deserve, so we might be treated as he deserves.
CS Lewis - "If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. Dark would be a word without meaning." |
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| Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 11:44 pm |
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| Soldier |
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| Outstanding! |
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| Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 6:35 pm |
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| Androcles |
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I don't get why people have a mono-mania when it comes to judging.
| Quote: | | first: judgment IS the plank in our own eye. |
I disagree. Judgement is what allows us to see the mote in our neighbor's eye and the beam in our own.
I think it silly to say don't judge at all. We should judge righteously.
| Quote: | | as soon as we stop trying to correct other people's behavior, we are freed, by grace, to love them. |
When we love them freely, then they are receptive for a mote-removal. (Subsequent to our own beam-removal, of course)
| Quote: | | judgment is something that only ONLY only god can do. |
That is true for a certain kind of judgement, but definitely not all kinds. Final Judgement is the Lord's. Some of the other kind is left to us. |
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_________________
Don't anthropomorphize computers. They hate it when you do that. |
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| Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 7:01 pm |
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| BerberCarpet |
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| Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 7:28 pm |
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| Androcles |
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| BerberCarpet wrote: |
it's pretty clear to me |
I guess since you arrive at you generalization using a few verses, not considering other things said in scripture about judgement, that's why I disagree.
In my estimation, what Jesus means by "Judge not" is do not condemn in the ultimate sense. He can't be saying make no judgements at all, because directly after saying "judge not," he explains conditions for judging.
Jesus also said: "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment." (John 7:24) |
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Don't anthropomorphize computers. They hate it when you do that. |
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| Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 12:59 am |
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| BerberCarpet |
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i will concede that we are indeed to "make judgement" --- even about people and what they are up to.
but the context of the verse you pulled out shows the difference between what jesus was referring to in john 7 and what he is teaching about in the sermon on the mount:
| Quote: | | 14 About the middle of the feast Jesus went up into the temple and began teaching. 15 The Jews therefore marveled, saying, “How is it that this man has learning, when he has never studied?” 16 So Jesus answered them, “My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me. 17 If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority. 18 The one who speaks on his own authority seeks his own glory, but the one who seeks the glory of him who sent him is true, and in him there is no falsehood. 19 Has not Moses given you the law? Yet none of you keeps the law. Why do you seek to kill me?” 20 The crowd answered, “You have a demon! Who is seeking to kill you?” 21 Jesus answered them, “I did one deed, and you all marvel at it. 22 Moses gave you circumcision (not that it is from Moses, but from the fathers), and you circumcise a man on the Sabbath. 23 If on the Sabbath a man receives circumcision, so that the law of Moses may not be broken, are you angry with me because on the Sabbath I made a man's whole body well? 24 Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.” |
both of these passages speak to not judging ---- and both infer that in order to make wise decisions about how to treat people one needs to be in a place of humility before god, and seeking the true good of the other person.
the original thought behind this thread was tricky pointing out how those who *claim* to follow christ's teachings are often those who are most guilty of being judgmental --- and unfairly judgmental at that, often with yucky results in the life of those being judged.
i was obviously, in my first post in this thread, not saying that one is never to decide whether something is right or wrong.
clearly to follow christ is to believe there IS a right.
but judging and condemning people is the wrong way to go about getting them to change their behavior, while encouraging and asking is the right way.
in fact, to do so is to make a right judgement: to "hold back" on force-feeding your "pearls" of "rightness" to those who are not able to digest them, and instead love and encourage and simply ask them to consider a better way.
so, i stand by my statement:
judging IS the plank in our eye.
and i'll say it again using a different word, by way of expounding:
condemning IS the plank in our eye.
romans 14:13 Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother.
condemnation and judging puts a HUGE stumbling block in the way of those who would otherwise be attracted to the kingdom.
we who claim to live in the kingdom behave in unattractive ways, in ways that make people feel rejected, not loved, and so they turn and attack us.
just like jesus says they will in the passage i quoted above.
but if we simply ask people, without condemnation, they are more apt to find our message acceptable. |
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| Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 7:32 am |
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| FreedByTruth |
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| Romans 13 wrote: | 8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellow-man has fulfilled the law.
9 The commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not murder, Do not steal, Do not covet, and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: Love your neighbour as yourself. |
Given the above, if you are coming from a place of loving someone and you 'judge' their actions are you judging them in the general sense of the word? The problem with the english language is that one word can have a varying degree of meanings, and in this case, judging is no exception.
The kind of judging Jesus was warning us against is the kind of self righteous judgement that comes from a heart of believing yourself to be better off. The pharisees would have been Jesus' target for the plankeye analogy because they believed themselves to be true livers of the law even though they'd missed the point entirely.
Only when we can look at someones actions and come to them out of love, to correct them out of love, can we avoid being the judges Jesus is warning against in that passage. |
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_________________
Through Gods great love Christ was treated as we deserve, so we might be treated as he deserves.
CS Lewis - "If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. Dark would be a word without meaning." |
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| Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 7:51 am |
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| Doris |
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| BerberCarpet wrote: |
we who claim to live in the kingdom behave in unattractive ways, in ways that make people feel rejected, not loved, and so they turn and attack us.
but if we simply ask people, without condemnation, they are more apt to find our message acceptable. |
That's so true People need to feel accepted by the church, and that's not going to happen while we go on about what a terrible life they've been/are living, because the truth is, we are all sinners. So sinners judging sinners makes no sense, because at the end of the day, it's all sin... I hope I'm making some sense here... It's God who makes the final judgement.
We need to be more like Jesus - a friend to the prostitutes and lepers that nobody else wanted to be around, and just share God's love  |
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~~Emma~~ |
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| Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 9:37 am |
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| Glacier |
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Great Topic!
Great Posts....everybody!
i think one of the biggest "stumbleing blocks" everybody struggles with is people judging to harshly based on past experiances. we don't give people a chance to change. and if we do the first time they screw up in trying to change we come down hard.......
we have to remember it takes time, help and Love to change and everybody deserves it. we should be there for everyone looking for a chance.... i know God has given me more than one chance....... |
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One God, One Love, One Way....
Ephesians 4:29
Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. |
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