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 Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 12:31 am |
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| BerberCarpet |
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"test everything; hold fast what is good."
i have been asked to post on my practice of exposing this board to beliefs or lines of thinking that i myself do not hold to.
this thread is meant to be an answer to that request.
in the interest of keeping it clear for those who won't read more than a few sentences, i'll make my main point up top, and flesh it out below:
the verses i have in mind, mostly are:
"...test everything; hold fast what is good." (1 thes 5)
"...always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you". (1 peter 3)
"Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you thinks that he is wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is folly with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their craftiness,” and again, “The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile.” So let no one boast in men. For all things are yours, whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, and you are Christ's, and Christ is God's." (1 cor 3)
my main point is this: all that is truth is god's truth, and we are instructed in scripture to seek it out and claim it as our own.
all too often, christians take an anti-intellectual attitude. we tend to discourage critical , questioning, or creative thinking. we do this, i think, in a misguided attempt at "guarding the truth" -- but the end result is that the truth is actually supressed, or more likely, never actually encountered.
many of us who grew up in christian homes, and almost all of us who grew up in western society, have heard some version of the gospel all our lives. it is impossible to get through life without encountering a version or other of it. the problem with this is that fimiliarity breeds contempt: as people have become accustomed to what they have heard is "the gospel", and rejected or accepted that gospel, they then go through their lives thinking they have done just that: accepted or rejected the gospel.
in fact, i submit that they have done no such thing.
as paul makes clear, if it is not the *actual* gospel, it is really no gospel at all.
and the pop-culture version of the gospel is not the *actual* gospel that jesus preached.
i'll make that point again, because i believe it is vitally important: the story that most people in western culture have accepted or rejected is not the gospel, but something else -- something crippled and distorted.
i am not questioning the "salvation" of millions of people who hold some christian faith now or in times past (romans makes clear that god judges all people based on what they know and what they do with what they know -- i believe we can trust the father in heaven to do the right thing with each and every human soul). rather, i am talking about something else: living life with jesus as mentor, for the good of those around us and to the glory of the father.
jesus asked no less than for people to abandon all they held dear, turn their lives in a new direction, and pursue love and justice.
thousands crowded around him because he taught with an authority they had never encountered on a subject they had heard all their lives: the message of god's love.
the message he preached was that the kingdom of god was available in a way it never had been before, and that anyone and everyone would do so may enter into it.
some rejoiced at this, some balked.
a few turned very bitter, and eventually killed him for it --- because his message was threatening the status quo, where they were comfortabely in power.
but he proved that he was who he claimed to be --- the perfect revelation of the father --- by not staying dead, and he turned the world on its ear by sending his students out to teach others what they had learned about how to live life: by loving people.
as a couple of generations passed, and it became clear that the story of this incredible news should be preserved in writing, some of these students set out to do just hat --- and others set out to write to the groups of people who had started meeting together to encourage each other in this new faith.
a few of those letters of encouragement were saved, and eventually gathered together as part of the scripture.
the three verses i qutoed above are from some of those letters.
in it, we have clues from some of the earliest believes -- some of jesus' first stuents -- about how to live this life he instructed us in living.
so little of jesus message had to do with holding to this or that theory about theology, or subscribing to any one system of belief.
rather, jesus message was about *doing*. about loving your neighbor, and about taking care of the poor, and about taking care of the single most important thing god ever created: the people around you.
and all of the letters to the early churches were geared towards encouraging people to that effort, and against allowing the ideas of the culture to invade and infect that pure message.
they were encouraged to try out the ideas that came along, and compare them to what they knew to be true, and to allow the spirit of the one true god to help them discern.
they were instructed to be thinkers: to be ready to give answers about this faith to questioners.
they were reminded that even when they think they *know* that they still don't know what god knows.
in light of all of this, as society changes it is still our duty as people who are trying to be students of jesus the christ to test all things.
to truly think through issues and not simply cling to the thinking we have always held, but to constantly evaluate our heads and our hearts and the ideas we find around us so that we can grow in our faith.
i post ideas that some may dissagree with (and i may disagree with) to further this effort.
i believe that we as christians *must* think critically about the ideas that the world around us holds, so that we may meet those ideas head on: embracing what is true, rejecting what is false, and always doing so with the help of the spirit of god.
i believe that too few of us bother doing that, because we have grown up in a culture that discourages it, and that it is one of my duties to encourage right behaviour.
some of the ideas i present are not in line with scripture. some are.
we who are jesus' disciples are under instruction to test them all, and to cling to those that are.
ignoring these ideas won't make them go away, though. the world around us, the one we are called to be in, holds these ideas, and if we are to be the salt and light in this world, we are obligated to reach them in a gentle, understanding way.
i believe that by thinking through tough issues, and by evaluating more sides that we might be comfortable with, we can grow as a body of beleivers --- we can gain a higher understanding of the truth.
i trust the holy spirit in the believer's life to help them discern that which is false from that which is true.
it must be evident that "truth" is a funny sort of thing, since many of us here claim to have it, yet disagree on so very many things.
so let us approach ideas humbly, and with open minds, as we are instructed to. let us reason together. let us think critically and creatively about this faith.
"test everything; hold fast what is good." |
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| Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 2:10 am |
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| Iconoclastic1 |
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| Joined: 25 Mar 2005 |
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| BerberCarpet wrote: | | all too often, christians take an anti-intellectual attitude. we tend to discourage critical , questioning, or creative thinking. we do this, i think, in a misguided attempt at "guarding the truth" -- but the end result is that the truth is actually supressed, or more likely, never actually encountered. |
That's probably for the best, since faith is the exact opposite of critically examining what you believe.
| BerberCarpet wrote: | many of us who grew up in christian homes, and almost all of us who grew up in western society, have heard some version of the gospel all our lives. it is impossible to get through life without encountering a version or other of it. the problem with this is that fimiliarity breeds contempt: as people have become accustomed to what they have heard is "the gospel", and rejected or accepted that gospel, they then go through their lives thinking they have done just that: accepted or rejected the gospel.
in fact, i submit that they have done no such thing.
as paul makes clear, if it is not the *actual* gospel, it is really no gospel at all. |
Sooo then what's the difference between the *actual* gospel and the one in the bible?
| BerberCarpet wrote: | and the pop-culture version of the gospel is not the *actual* gospel that jesus preached.
i'll make that point again, because i believe it is vitally important: the story that most people in western culture have accepted or rejected is not the gospel, but something else -- something crippled and distorted.
i am not questioning the "salvation" of millions of people who hold some christian faith now or in times past (romans makes clear that god judges all people based on what they know and what they do with what they know -- i believe we can trust the father in heaven to do the right thing with each and every human soul). rather, i am talking about something else: living life with jesus as mentor, for the good of those around us and to the glory of the father.
jesus asked no less than for people to abandon all they held dear, |
Including their families, can't forget that part.
| BerberCarpet wrote: | | turn their lives in a new direction, and pursue love and justice. |
And whatever particular flavor of love and justice happens to appeal to you best, you can justify it with the gospel. Pick one:
John 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
OR
Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
| BerberCarpet wrote: | | thousands crowded around him because he taught with an authority they had never encountered on a subject they had heard all their lives: the message of god's love. |
Doubtful. If he really taught thousands then he would have been chronicled by at least one of his contemporaries.
| BerberCarpet wrote: | | the message he preached was that the kingdom of god was available in a way it never had been before, |
All those guys born before JC's time were S.O.L. I guess.
| BerberCarpet wrote: | | and that anyone and everyone would do so may enter into it. |
As long as you become a memebot.
| BerberCarpet wrote: | | some rejoiced at this, some balked. |
Balk balk... balk balk balk. Balk!
| BerberCarpet wrote: | a few turned very bitter, and eventually killed him for it --- because his message was threatening the status quo, where they were comfortabely in power.
but he proved that he was who he claimed to be --- the perfect revelation of the father --- by not staying dead, and he turned the world on its ear by sending his students out to teach others what they had learned about how to live life: by loving people.
as a couple of generations passed, and it became clear that the story of this incredible news should be preserved in writing, some of these students set out to do just hat --- and others set out to write to the groups of people who had started meeting together to encourage each other in this new faith.
a few of those letters of encouragement were saved, and eventually gathered together as part of the scripture.
the three verses i qutoed above are from some of those letters.
in it, we have clues from some of the earliest believes -- some of jesus' first stuents -- about how to live this life he instructed us in living.
so little of jesus message had to do with holding to this or that theory about theology, or subscribing to any one system of belief.
rather, jesus message was about *doing*. about loving your neighbor, and about taking care of the poor, and about taking care of the single most important thing god ever created: the people around you. |
Not that any of that has anything to do with salvation though, because, y'know, it doesn't.
| BerberCarpet wrote: | and all of the letters to the early churches were geared towards encouraging people to that effort, and against allowing the ideas of the culture to invade and infect that pure message.
they were encouraged to try out the ideas that came along, and compare them to what they knew to be true, and to allow the spirit of the one true god to help them discern.
they were instructed to be thinkers: to be ready to give answers about this faith to questioners.
they were reminded that even when they think they *know* that they still don't know what god knows.
in light of all of this, as society changes it is still our duty as people who are trying to be students of jesus the christ to test all things.
to truly think through issues and not simply cling to the thinking we have always held, but to constantly evaluate our heads and our hearts and the ideas we find around us so that we can grow in our faith. |
You forgot to mention the part about evaluating the actual faith itself. Seems like a little bit of a double standard, especially since it's the very definition of "the thinking we have always held", as you put it.
| BerberCarpet wrote: | i post ideas that some may dissagree with (and i may disagree with) to further this effort.
i believe that we as christians *must* think critically about the ideas that the world around us holds, so that we may meet those ideas head on: embracing what is true, rejecting what is false, and always doing so with the help of the spirit of god.
i believe that too few of us bother doing that, because we have grown up in a culture that discourages it, and that it is one of my duties to encourage right behaviour.
some of the ideas i present are not in line with scripture. some are.
we who are jesus' disciples are under instruction to test them all, and to cling to those that are.
ignoring these ideas won't make them go away, though. the world around us, the one we are called to be in, holds these ideas, and if we are to be the salt and light in this world, we are obligated to reach them in a gentle, understanding way.
i believe that by thinking through tough issues, and by evaluating more sides that we might be comfortable with, we can grow as a body of beleivers --- we can gain a higher understanding of the truth.
i trust the holy spirit in the believer's life to help them discern that which is false from that which is true.
it must be evident that "truth" is a funny sort of thing, since many of us here claim to have it, yet disagree on so very many things.
so let us approach ideas humbly, and with open minds, as we are instructed to. let us reason together. let us think critically and creatively about this faith.
"test everything; hold fast what is good." |
An excellent message, and a worthy goal, so long as the precept is applied with impartiality. |
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"Christianity is the belief that a cosmic Jewish zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him that you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree."
-Anonymous |
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| Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 9:19 am |
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| Josiah |
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| Joined: 11 Jun 2004 |
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| BerberCarpet wrote: | "test everything; hold fast what is good."
in the interest of keeping it clear for those who won't read more than a few sentences, |
LOL!!!
I'll remind you, Chris, that you've twice PM'd me to say you don't read my posts, and doubt anyone else does either, because they are just too long.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 9:22 am |
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| Josiah |
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| Joined: 11 Jun 2004 |
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MY view...
Philosophy is not my "thing" but I'll weigh in...
| BerberCarpet wrote: | the verses i have in mind, mostly are:
"...test everything; hold fast what is good." (1 thes 5)
"...always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you". (1 peter 3)
"Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you thinks that he is wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is folly with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their craftiness,” and again, “The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile.” So let no one boast in men. For all things are yours, whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, and you are Christ's, and Christ is God's." (1 cor 3)
my main point is this: all that is truth is god's truth, and we are instructed in scripture to seek it out and claim it as our own.
all too often, christians take an anti-intellectual attitude. we tend to discourage critical , questioning, or creative thinking. |
Ah, the question of epistemology...
A point I often raise...
Ah, the issue of what is "truth?"...
In the milieu in which we live, in the contemporary worldview of this very secular and materialistic world which engulfs us, there is an assumption (yes, an assumption) that what is real is matter and what matters is matter. In the past 300 years or so, science has become the new "religion" of sorts, the "truth" that is beyond question, the "truth" that is assumed. I think this is de-evolving; it probably reached it's peak in the 1900's-1950's, but it's still the dominate assumption.
It is my conviction that not all truth is subject to the scientific method. Not all truth can be embraced by a scientific approach (I just made both the natural and social "scientists" among us mad at me). Nor am I a materialist, I do not believe what ultimately matters is matter - stuff, things, and what makes them go and what makes them mine. Ahha, I'm a physics major in college - but I don't worship physics.
If not all reality is material, if not all truth can be embraced by the scientific method, then how we "examine" truth is not always going to be of the same nature.
On the one hand, PROOF is a very elusive thing. PROOF demands that we assume the same epistemology, the same acceptance of what qualifies as PROOF. In science, we largely avoid the concept entirely (leaving these issues to the pot smoking, long haired, sandal wearing guys over in the Philosophy Department).
On the other hand, Chris has a very valid point: There is nothing in the Bible that remotely supports "blind" faith, faith that makes no sense, faith that is not supported by some reasonable epistemology or that is clearly contradicted by what seems "true." We should be constantly examining what we believe. It's one reason why I'm here. My denomination has a cool discussion forum much like this one for college students - but college students of our denomination. Thus, I don't go there. I don't want to learn to "sing the song" louder, I want to check out the song. Maybe even amend the lyrics (if need be) or learn a new song.
So, there is a tension:
On the one hand, since EVERYONE assumes far more than they likely realize (or admit) and EVERYONE has their own epistemology (although often unexamined and often they don't realize it). PROOF is darn hard to PROVE. We all operate within a worldview, a philosophical/cultural milieu, and an epistemology. Realizing and examining such is very helpful. Often, what we are actually discussing is something far more subjective than we often will admit - what "evidence" is sufficient for us to intellectually accept and/or to act upon. Faith = to trust, to rely. To ME, is there sufficient evidence that fits my epistemology to accept this airplane can fly? Then, is it enough to empower me to actually board the plane (FAITH)? Ah.... "sufficient" "evidence" "epistemology" "accept" "for me."
On the other hand, evidence needs some basis outside ourselves. The Bible never supports "blind" faith. Unlike what some have suggested, accepting God does not mean that we therefore, by definition, also accept invisible pink unicorns or the tooth fairy or the Easter bunny or Santa Claus. Soren Kirkegaard - "Evidence takes us only so far, and then there is the leap of faith." That "leap of faith" does tend to be the last step - "I accept this as true" or "I will trust/rely on this." But, it IS the LAST step - not the first.
MY view...
Keep the faith! Share the love!
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| Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 10:08 am |
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| Josiah |
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| Joined: 11 Jun 2004 |
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| BerberCarpet wrote: |
all too often, christians take an anti-intellectual attitude. we tend to discourage critical , questioning, or creative thinking. we do this, i think, in a misguided attempt at "guarding the truth" -- but the end result is that the truth is actually supressed, or more likely, never actually encountered. |
Well, depends what you mean by all these loaded words...
I find that Christians are often very well informed. The Christian clergy remains one of the most educated of all professions.
But, yes, all people tend to reject that which doesn't "fit" our worldview, especially that which is "precious" or important or foundational to us in some sense simply because it is foundational. All people wear glasses, Chris.
Yes, to make a wild generalization, Christians have at times in history surpressed the quest for knowledge (the whole "flat earth" debate comes to my mind; scientists LOVE to perpetuate the story of Galileo - I understand, often incorrectly). But Christians are also the founders of nearly every great university in the world, many giants education and research in a wide range of disciples were and are Christians. And, yes, atheists and agnostics can also cling to their assumptions and faith-systems in ways that reveal an unwillingness to examine it.
| BerberCarpet wrote: | many of us who grew up in christian homes, and almost all of us who grew up in western society, have heard some version of the gospel all our lives. it is impossible to get through life without encountering a version or other of it. the problem with this is that fimiliarity breeds contempt: as people have become accustomed to what they have heard is "the gospel", and rejected or accepted that gospel, they then go through their lives thinking they have done just that: accepted or rejected the gospel.
in fact, i submit that they have done no such thing.
as paul makes clear, if it is not the *actual* gospel, it is really no gospel at all.
and the pop-culture version of the gospel is not the *actual* gospel that jesus preached.
i'll make that point again, because i believe it is vitally important: the story that most people in western culture have accepted or rejected is not the gospel, but something else -- something crippled and distorted. |
I guess you'll need to define all those terms before comment is possible.
I have no idea what you consider to be the "actual" Gospel or the "pop-culture" Gospel. And, Chris, you may not find that every Christian will agree with you. You, too, need to "examine" such vis-a-vis your examined epistemology.
Yes, something like 85% of Americans consider themselves to be Christians. Something like 65% belong to a congregation. So, I guess most of them have heard the Gospel and probably have some idea of what is meant by that term (never defined in the Bible).
Your other post about how the vast majority of Americans think that works save gives me cause to think there's some disagreement with what I label as the "Gospel."
I share my faith in my TESTIMONY that is found in several posts in the TESTIMONY FORUM. There's a link at the very bottom of this post, in the signature line.
| BerberCarpet wrote: | thousands crowded around him because he taught with an authority they had never encountered on a subject they had heard all their lives: the message of god's love.
the message he preached was that the kingdom of god was available in a way it never had been before, and that anyone and everyone would do so may enter into it.
some rejoiced at this, some balked. |
I think the central message of Christianity is love.
1 John 1:8, "God is love."
John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that He gave His Son that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but has everlasting life."
1 John 4:10, "Not that we love God but that God loves us."
1 Peter 5:7, "God cares about you."
I think Christianity is about our relationship with God, and the implications of that for our relationships with self, others and creation.
John 13:34, "Love one another as I first loved you."
Leviticus 26:12, "You shall be My people and I shall be your God."
1 John 3:1, "See what love the Father has lavished upon us that we are called the children of God, because that's exactly what we now are."
Galatians 4:5, "Because we are His children, God sent the spirit of His Son into our hearts crying, 'Abba, Father'." "Abba" means "Daddy" it's a very personal, intimate, loving, trusting word that a child used.
I speak much more of this in my TESTIMONY thread...
| BerberCarpet wrote: | so little of jesus message had to do with holding to this or that theory about theology, or subscribing to any one system of belief.
rather, jesus message was about *doing*. about loving your neighbor, and about taking care of the poor, and about taking care of the single most important thing god ever created: the people around you. |
You and I have often been "on the same page" here...
I DO think that ideas (theology) matters!! Because it does impact what we do and think and say, the attitudes we have. Often, if you examine the core of what a person believes, their attitudes, priorities, values, etc. some into view. There is an interrelationship here.
On the other hand, I totally agree that Christianity is NOT a philosophy or set of "answers." It's not really about what is in our heads but what is in our hearts and therefore what is in our lives.
"By this will all know that you are My disciples, if you have love." Jesus said that. I'm struck that He did not say, "...if you have the correct answer to every question."
"For God so loved the world that He gave His Son, that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but has everlasting life." Ah, He didn't say, "that whosoever has perfect theology..."
MY view...
Keep the faith! Share the love!
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| Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 11:44 am |
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| BerberCarpet |
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| Iconoclastic1 wrote: | | Sooo then what's the difference between the *actual* gospel and the one in the bible? |
news is always in the eye of the beholder.
when a bible sits there, holding information about the gospel, the gospel that it contains information about lays dormant.
perhaps in some sense we can say that's the *actual* gospel, but it is a useless one.
the news jesus taught only begins to be useful when someone learns of it and starts to put it into practice.
when someone sets their life on a path of discipleship to him, with the goal of becoming like him.
when a person does this, the *actual gospel* is manifest.
the "fake gospel" most people have accepted or rejected differs depending upon which "side" of church it has come from.
the evangelical right's gospel has been more or less: "if you die today, do you know you will go to heaven?"
it has been primarily concerned about the afterlife, and talks about "heaven" as a goal.
this is something jesus never did.
now, there is much talk of discipleship in these groups, but not the kind of discipleship that jesus would recognize.
rather, they are after *head knowledge*. they wish to ensure their students "believe the right things" about big words like sanctification, justification and atonement.
they are in the business of "sin management" --- making sure people don't "do wrong", so that they can "get into heaven".
the left side, the mainline churches and more liberal denominations, have turned the gospel into a social action message. that if we all work together, we cure society's ills by taking care of the poor better.
personal growth is all but ignored in favor of being part of the team that "cares". little attention is paid to how individuals actually do things, as efforts are focused around building institutions that make lots of noise about doing good.
they are in the business of "society management".
the gospel jesus taught was: "come, follow me, for the kingdom of heaven is available today."
he taught us to live well --- to live in such a manor that we obtain peace with god and with each other.
the *side effects* of that kind of living is salvation and a better society.
they are not goals in and of themselves.
to fully expound on this would require 400 pages, so i'll leave off there.
hopefully some of what i have in mind has been communicated. |
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| Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 4:27 pm |
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| Pavadinimas |
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| BerberCarpet wrote: | | i have been asked to post on my practice of exposing this board to beliefs or lines of thinking that i myself do not hold to. |
When I asked you, I didn't think it would be so LONG. |
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 10:12 pm |
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| livin4Him0116 |
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dude, i agree with absolutly everything you wrote. all too often we find that people are taking biblical gospel and twisting it and turning it into something that makes people feel comfortable when they hear it. now, don't get me wrong, people should always feel welcome in a church setting where the gospel is presented, but never comfortable under any means. does not Jesus say things like "All men will hate you because of me", and "I come not to bring peace, but a sword." That in fact is not comfortable in the least, but it is the truth.
I also agree with you on test everything because, for one thing, it comes from the Bible. But, also, all too often Christians stick there heads in the sand and refuse to look and examine everything but what they have been taught from future generations, which, as above mentioned, could very will be twisted. We must test everything, and then hold on to what is good. If you don't test anything, how will you know what is right and what is not?
Keep on keepin on. |
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_________________
"Glory to the Rock", says the blade of grass |
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