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 Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 7:27 pm |
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| Mikalee |
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Many (if not most) Christians believe the 'Bride of Christ' to be equivalent to the 'Body of Christ' or 'The Church' (the latter ones include ALL Christians). Unfortunately, this is not what the Bible teaches. Understanding what the Bible really teaches on this subject will erase MANY of the much debated 'contradictions' in the Bible (such as Grace vs Works). I urge you to have an open heart when reading this and prayerfully study the Word with it in mind. In this topic, there are a few other topics that will be mentioned that should really be studied on their own to better understand this subject. They include the following:
* The 'Judgement Seat of Christ' (which is where Christians will be judged - White throne judgement is for the unsaved)
* The 'Outer Darkness' (which is NOT hell)
* The 1000 year period after Christ comes back (Called the 'millenial Kingdom')
* 'Sonship' (spiritual maturity into 'sons of God' as opposed to 'children of God')
* And, of course the 'Bride of Christ' (along with some other minor ones).
All of these topics need to be studied in depth to be understood, but I will try to give a brief introduction (while keeping the main topic as the focus). I will also add links to a number of articles that do a much better job of describing each of these topics at the bottom of the page - please take the time to read them!
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First of all, I would like to say that ALL CHRISTIANS become a part of the Body of Christ the moment they are saved. They receive the 'uncreated' life of God in them and actually become a part of His Body. You can also say they become a part of THE Church of God or that they are BORN (not adopted) into God's family (since they all actually receive God's life at this new birth). With that said, the Bible never actually calls the ALL Christians the Bride of Christ. You may or may not know of rules called the 'first mention' and 'final mention' in the Bible. It basically states that the first or last mention of any word/phrase/subject in the Bible is usually a key to to all its meaning. Also, keep in mind that things written in the Old Testament are types and examples for our learning (Rom. 15:4, I Cor. 10:11) - everything has an immediate and eternal meaning in the Bible.
Judging by the Old Testament types, we can see that the Bride comes OUT of the Body. The two best examples that illustrate this subject (among many) are 1) Eve, who was not the Body of Adam but was taken out of his body. Adam is a type of Christ (Gen. 2:21-23). 2) In Gen 24, we read the story of Abraham who sent his servant to take a bride for his son, Isaac. In this story, Abraham (type of God, the father), sent the servant (type of the Holy Spirit) to HIS OWN PEOPLE (a type of all Christians), and take a Bride for Isaac, his son (type of Jesus). When the messages of salvation goes forth, it goes to ALL. But when God seeks for a Bride for His son, He looks within His people (believers).
With that said, I think it might be best to give a very quick overview of who the bride is, how you become part of the bride, and what the future holds for the bride before getting into details.
As I said earlier, once saved (accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Saviour), you automatically receive God's life in you and become a Child of God (by life - literally). However, it's a crucial thing to note that in the Bible, there are two different Greek words used for 'Children/sons': 'teknon' (meaning child) and 'huios' (meaning SON - as in mature and responsible). Children of God, who do not allow God to work in them and renew their souls in their time on earth do NOT grow into Sonship. They do not conform to the image of Christ and thus can NOT and will not be able to inherit His throne and govern with Him. For more on this topic, read this: God's Firstborn Sons - Part III. Note that the conformation would only occur if the heart is truly after God's, and not due to religious reasons or chasing rewards.
Once Jesus comes back, there will be what is called the 'Judgement Seat of Christ'. This is when Jesus Himself judges all Christians. It is at this point that we are judged based on our works (which are the fruit of a love relationship - not religious works).
2 Corinthians 5:9-10
The Judgment Seat of Christ
9) Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. 10) For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
If you allowed God to work in you and you matured as Sons into His plan and purpose, you will go to be with Jesus in the Heavenly Kingdom for 1000 years (millenial Kingdom). During this time (also called the 'Marriage of the Lamb'):
Revelation 19:7-9
7) Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready." 8) And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
9) Then he said to me, "Write: "Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!"' And he said to me, "These are the true sayings of God."
That 'Fine linen' represent a garment of 'good works' with which we are judged. The best example of this (compared to the Rev 19:7 verse above) is this parable:
Matthew 22:1-14
The Marriage of the King's Son
1) And Jesus answered and spoke to them again by parables and said: 2) "The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son, 3) and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come. 4) Again, he sent out other servants, saying, "Tell those who are invited, "See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding."' 5) But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business. 6) And the rest seized his servants, treated them spitefully, and killed them. 7) But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. 8) Then he said to his servants, "The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9) Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.' 10) So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests.
11) "But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment. 12) So he said to him, "Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?' And he was speechless. 13) Then the king said to the servants, "Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
14) "For many are called, but few are chosen."
Which brings me to the next part. Whoever found NOT worthy (remained children their whole lives and did not conform to the Image of Christ, and had no fruit of good works) will be cast into the 'Outer Darkness' for a period of 1000 years. The outer darkness is NOT Hell! It's a place just outside the place the marriage of the Lamb is taking place. I know this is a whole topic on it's own. For more info read this: Cast Outside.
Also, at this point, Satan will be thrown in the 'bottomless pit' for the period of 1000 years (Revelation 20). During the millenium, Jesus and the Saints will be reigning on the Heavenly Kingdom and their work will be to restore the Earth without the influence of Satan (1 Corinthians 15:20-28). Once the Millenium is over, Satan will be released for a short time and then cast into Hell forever. Also after the millenium is when all the dead will be judged by God (the Great White throne judgement) and anyone cast into the outer darkness will be brought back as well (this is all in Rev 20). Then the Kingdom will be handed over to God, and there will be a new Heaven and a New Earth forever and ever where God will be ALL and IN ALL!! (1 Corinthians 15:28, Revelation 21). |
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 7:28 pm |
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| Mikalee |
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Now for more specific details on the Bride, read the following:
Read these 2 articles, and study the scripture below (mostly mentioned in the articles)
1) A Shotgun Wedding for the Bride of Christ
2) Who Is the Bride of Christ? (PDF)
Matt 9:14-15
Then the disciples of John came to Him, saying, "Why do we and the Pharisees fast, but Your disciples do not fast?" And Jesus said to them, "The attendants of the bridegroom cannot mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them, can they? But the days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast.
Matthew 25:1-13
The Parable of the Wise and Foolish Virgins
The Return of Christ in Judgment
"Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their lamps, and went out to meet the bridegroom. "And five of them were foolish, and five were prudent. "For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them, but the prudent took oil in flasks along with their lamps. "Now while the bridegroom was delaying, they all got drowsy and began to sleep. "But at midnight there was a shout, 'Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.' "Then all those virgins rose, and trimmed their lamps. "And the foolish said to the prudent, 'Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.' "But the prudent answered, saying, 'No, there will not be enough for us and you too; go instead to the dealers and buy some for yourselves.' "And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut. "And later the other virgins also came, saying, 'Lord, lord, open up for us.' "But he answered and said, 'Truly I say to you, I do not know you.' "Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour.
Matthew 22:1-14 (already above)
The Marriage of the King's Son
1) And Jesus answered and spoke to them again by parables and said: 2) "The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son, 3) and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come. 4) Again, he sent out other servants, saying, "Tell those who are invited, "See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding."' 5) But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business. 6) And the rest seized his servants, treated them spitefully, and killed them. 7) But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. 8) Then he said to his servants, "The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9) Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.' 10) So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests.
11) "But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment. 12) So he said to him, "Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?' And he was speechless. 13) Then the king said to the servants, "Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
14) "For many are called, but few are chosen."
Revelation 19:7-9
7) Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready." 8) And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
9) Then he said to me, "Write: "Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!"' And he said to me, "These are the true sayings of God." |
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 7:39 pm |
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| Mikalee |
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Here is an online booklet that discusses many of these things - a GREAT read: Worthy of the Kingdom.
The Wedding Breakfast
The Judgement Seat of Christ.
And much more...
Any of the following authors would give great insight into this less taught and crucial subject:
Robert Govett
G.H. Lang
Austin Sparks
Arlen Chitwood
D.M. Panton
Joseph C. Dillow
Bob Wilkin
Charlie Bing
John S. Lanham...and many more
I'm sure there'll be lots of questions and comments (actually I hope) - please feel free to share what you think! |
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2004 10:19 pm |
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| He'sMyEverything |
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Hmm...very interesting.  I'll have to do some more research on this. Thanks, Mike! 
I do have something to say right now, though:
| Mikalee wrote: | The Parable of the Wise and Foolish Virgins
The Return of Christ in Judgment
"Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their lamps, and went out to meet the bridegroom. "And five of them were foolish, and five were prudent. "For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them, but the prudent took oil in flasks along with their lamps. "Now while the bridegroom was delaying, they all got drowsy and began to sleep. "But at midnight there was a shout, 'Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.' "Then all those virgins rose, and trimmed their lamps. "And the foolish said to the prudent, 'Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.' "But the prudent answered, saying, 'No, there will not be enough for us and you too; go instead to the dealers and buy some for yourselves.' "And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut. "And later the other virgins also came, saying, 'Lord, lord, open up for us.' "But he answered and said, 'Truly I say to you, I do not know you.' "Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour.
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Now, would Jesus say that to one of His children? I don't think He would, even if they weren't part of the Bride of Christ but were still a Christian (if this is indeed possible, since I am not sure). I think the virgins Jesus says that to are obviously not saved. I think Jesus would only say "I don't know you" to one who was not covered by His blood.
Thoughts? |
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_________________
"I'm going on! There's no giving up in this fight. I'm going on 'til my faith has turned to sight. I have fixed my eyes on Christ, He's the Anchor of my life; in the power of His might, I'm going on!"
"I tried to climb the mountains of this life, but failed; thinking only of myself and my own gain. But the Shepherd came and found me on the cliffs of sin, and from that moment life has never been the same."
~Deena |
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2004 2:20 pm |
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| Mikalee |
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| He'sMyEverything wrote: | | Mikalee wrote: | The Parable of the Wise and Foolish Virgins
The Return of Christ in Judgment
"Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their lamps, and went out to meet the bridegroom. "And five of them were foolish, and five were prudent. "For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them, but the prudent took oil in flasks along with their lamps. "Now while the bridegroom was delaying, they all got drowsy and began to sleep. "But at midnight there was a shout, 'Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.' "Then all those virgins rose, and trimmed their lamps. "And the foolish said to the prudent, 'Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.' "But the prudent answered, saying, 'No, there will not be enough for us and you too; go instead to the dealers and buy some for yourselves.' "And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut. "And later the other virgins also came, saying, 'Lord, lord, open up for us.' "But he answered and said, 'Truly I say to you, I do not know you.' "Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour.
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Now, would Jesus say that to one of His children? I don't think He would, even if they weren't part of the Bride of Christ but were still a Christian (if this is indeed possible, since I am not sure). I think the virgins Jesus says that to are obviously not saved. I think Jesus would only say "I don't know you" to one who was not covered by His blood.
Thoughts? |
Study the word "Virgin" in the Bible. Out of all the times the word in mentioned, the majority of them refer to actual virgins. But, Israel is also referred to as a Virgin for the Lord (esp in the prophetic books like Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel), example:
Jeremiah 2:32
Can a virgin forget her ornaments, Or a bride her attire? Yet My people have forgotten Me days without number.
And guess what, Christians are also referred to as virgins for Christ:
2 Corinthians 11:2
For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
Revelation 14:4
These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.
Jesus wouldn't have said 10 virgins if not referring to Christians. He was specific with a term used to describe God's people.
As for the "I do not know you". He will say that to Christians who did not allow themselves to be conformed to Him. They will be sent to the outer darkness and miss the marriage of the Lamb. Read this parable:
Luke 13:24-30
24) "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25) When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, "Lord, Lord, open for us,' and He will answer and say to you, "I do not know you, where you are from,' 26) then you will begin to say, "We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.' 27) But He will say, "I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.' 28) There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out. 29) They will come from the east and the west, from the north and the south, and sit down in the kingdom of God. 30) And indeed there are last who will be first, and there are first who will be last."
This passage is so abundantly clear and confirms what I'm saying. Who do you think would tell Jesus "We ate and drank in your presence"? Also, you have to remember that Jesus ONLY Judges the SAVED people at the Judgement Seat of Christ. The unsaved will be judged by God at the Great White Throne Judgement AFTER the millenial kingdom. Pleeease read the Bible with an open heart and you'll find many many more verses that support what I'm saying here! |
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2004 3:32 am |
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| He'sMyEverything |
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| Mikalee wrote: | | "'Lord, Lord, open for us,' and He will answer and say to you, "I do not know you, where you are from,' 26) then you will begin to say, "We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.' 27) But He will say, "I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity...'" |
1) Jesus will not tell a Christian He doesn't know them.
Why?:
If you are a Christian, you are a child of God; you belong to Jesus and
are a New Creature in Christ.
Doesn't Christ KNOW us when we are saved? And when we are walking
in His light?
If He does, then by saying that it is Christians He is talking about here
you are calling Him a liar.
2) Just because they say "we ate and drank..." etc. doesn't mean they
are Christians. Are those Jesus talks about in Matthew 7:22 & 23
Christians?
3) Christians cannot be "workers of iniquity." How could that be possible?
We are saved from our iniquities and we are made New Creatures!! We live
for God, not for ourselves and Satan anymore!! I don't understand
how anyone would say Christians can be "workers of iniquity"; please explain this to me... |
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_________________
"I'm going on! There's no giving up in this fight. I'm going on 'til my faith has turned to sight. I have fixed my eyes on Christ, He's the Anchor of my life; in the power of His might, I'm going on!"
"I tried to climb the mountains of this life, but failed; thinking only of myself and my own gain. But the Shepherd came and found me on the cliffs of sin, and from that moment life has never been the same."
~Deena |
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2004 1:07 pm |
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| Mikalee |
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| He'sMyEverything wrote: | | Mikalee wrote: | | "'Lord, Lord, open for us,' and He will answer and say to you, "I do not know you, where you are from,' 26) then you will begin to say, "We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.' 27) But He will say, "I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity...'" |
1) Jesus will not tell a Christian He doesn't know them.
Why?:
If you are a Christian, you are a child of God; you belong to Jesus and
are a New Creature in Christ.
Doesn't Christ KNOW us when we are saved? And when we are walking
in His light?
If He does, then by saying that it is Christians He is talking about here
you are calling Him a liar.
2) Just because they say "we ate and drank..." etc. doesn't mean they
are Christians. Are those Jesus talks about in Matthew 7:22 & 23
Christians?
3) Christians cannot be "workers of iniquity." How could that be possible?
We are saved from our iniquities and we are made New Creatures!! We live
for God, not for ourselves and Satan anymore!! I don't understand
how anyone would say Christians can be "workers of iniquity"; please explain this to me... |
As I just said in the other topic we're discussing, you're missing a couple of major points of mine. I'm anxious to answer but I won't have time till later today.
In the meantime, think about this, is it possible for Jesus not to know ANYONE? (Considering He is Omniscient?). Therefore that "I do not know you" must be relative. Anywho, I'll add more later... |
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2004 1:20 pm |
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| He'sMyEverything |
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| Mikalee wrote: | As I just said in the other topic we're discussing, you're missing a couple of major points of mine. I'm anxious to answer but I won't have time till later today.
In the meantime, think about this, is it possible for Jesus not to know ANYONE? (Considering He is Omniscient?). Therefore that "I do not know you" must be relative. Anywho, I'll add more later... |
Hmmm...I don't agree with that. I think it is obvious that when Jesus talks about knowing someone He is talking about having communion with them. I don't think it is relative at all...
If I am missing the major points, it is probably either because I agree with you on them or because I have nothing to say to them. I only bring up what I am confused about or what I feel led to disagree on - what I feel is true. |
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_________________
"I'm going on! There's no giving up in this fight. I'm going on 'til my faith has turned to sight. I have fixed my eyes on Christ, He's the Anchor of my life; in the power of His might, I'm going on!"
"I tried to climb the mountains of this life, but failed; thinking only of myself and my own gain. But the Shepherd came and found me on the cliffs of sin, and from that moment life has never been the same."
~Deena |
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2004 5:59 pm |
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| edmonki |
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| Quote: | | You may or may not know of rules called the 'first mention' and 'final mention' in the Bible. It basically states that the first or last mention of any word/phrase/subject in the Bible is usually a key to to all its meaning. |
I have not heard of these rules before, and im curious, on what is this based? because it seems like a ridiculous rule to me. |
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Far to many christians dont want the bible to interfere with their life. |
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2004 5:59 pm |
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| Zagadka |
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| Mikey wrote: | Study the word "Virgin" in the Bible. Out of all the times the word in mentioned, the majority of them refer to actual virgins. But, Israel is also referred to as a Virgin for the Lord (esp in the prophetic books like Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel), example:
Jesus wouldn't have said 10 virgins if not referring to Christians. He was specific with a term used to describe God's people. |
I think that there's an allusion to Christians and virgins being one in the same, but not entirely. These virgins are preparing to go to the wedding, just like many people go to church, and say they are Christian. But they're not going to get to the wedding because they haven't done everything necessary. It takes more than going to church and "saying" that you're Christian. These virgins were part-Christian. Lukewarm. Not whole.
| Mikey wrote: | As for the "I do not know you". He will say that to Christians who did not allow themselves to be conformed to Him. They will be sent to the outer darkness and miss the marriage of the Lamb. Read this parable:
This passage is so abundantly clear and confirms what I'm saying. Who do you think would tell Jesus "We ate and drank in your presence"? Also, you have to remember that Jesus ONLY Judges the SAVED people at the Judgement Seat of Christ. The unsaved will be judged by God at the Great White Throne Judgement AFTER the millenial kingdom. Pleeease read the Bible with an open heart and you'll find many many more verses that support what I'm saying here! |
Would you mind referencing "outer darkness?" *Zagadka hides as Mikey sifts through mounds of articles*
And at the time this question was asked (Luke 13:23), there were actually many people that literally ate and drank with Jesus. |
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I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me. (Phl 4:13) |
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2004 6:06 pm |
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| Mikalee |
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| edmonki wrote: | | Quote: | | You may or may not know of rules called the 'first mention' and 'final mention' in the Bible. It basically states that the first or last mention of any word/phrase/subject in the Bible is usually a key to to all its meaning. |
I have not heard of these rules before, and im curious, on what is this based? because it seems like a ridiculous rule to me. |
Actually I'm not sure how these rules came about, but I have heard them a lot (primarily the rule of first mention). A few people have also told me that they've learned this in Seminary school. (Put it to the test, see if it stands). |
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2004 6:17 pm |
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| Mikalee |
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| Zagadka wrote: | | Mikey wrote: | Study the word "Virgin" in the Bible. Out of all the times the word in mentioned, the majority of them refer to actual virgins. But, Israel is also referred to as a Virgin for the Lord (esp in the prophetic books like Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel), example:
Jesus wouldn't have said 10 virgins if not referring to Christians. He was specific with a term used to describe God's people. |
I think that there's an allusion to Christians and virgins being one in the same, but not entirely. These virgins are preparing to go to the wedding, just like many people go to church, and say they are Christian. But they're not going to get to the wedding because they haven't done everything necessary. It takes more than going to church and "saying" that you're Christian. These virgins were part-Christian. Lukewarm. Not whole. |
Dustin, I'm not sure if you realized it or not, but your last sentence said exactly what I'm saying. I am referring to lukewarm Christians as the 5 foolish virgins. But for a more detailed response you'll have to wait for the one I'm writing for Deena tonight
Notice that the passage is for 10 Virgins and NOT 5 virgins and 5 non-virgins. Or 5 sheep and 5 goats! Whoever Jesus is talking about, they are the 'same' kinda people.
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| Mikey wrote: | As for the "I do not know you". He will say that to Christians who did not allow themselves to be conformed to Him. They will be sent to the outer darkness and miss the marriage of the Lamb. Read this parable:
This passage is so abundantly clear and confirms what I'm saying. Who do you think would tell Jesus "We ate and drank in your presence"? Also, you have to remember that Jesus ONLY Judges the SAVED people at the Judgement Seat of Christ. The unsaved will be judged by God at the Great White Throne Judgement AFTER the millenial kingdom. Pleeease read the Bible with an open heart and you'll find many many more verses that support what I'm saying here! |
Would you mind referencing "outer darkness?" *Zagadka hides as Mikey sifts through mounds of articles*
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Actually it was easy to find since I did post a link from it on the first post (above) I'll give you a couple (everyone should read these, since they shed a lot of light on exactly what we're talking about):
Cast Outside
The Outer Darkness (PDF)
"If They Shall Fall Away..." (Heb 6:4-6) (Just for you Deena )
OK that should keep you guys busy for a while. The problem is that though the articles do a better job than I in explaining things, no one reads them! lol, I will reply to the posts in a couple of hours. |
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2004 11:15 pm |
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| He'sMyEverything |
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| Location: O-town, Washington, U.S.A., Earth, Universe, God's hands |
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| Mikalee wrote: |
"If They Shall Fall Away..." (Heb 6:4-6)(Just for you Deena )
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Thanks, Mike.
But I have a question: Is the man who wrote that saying that what is refered to in Hebrews 6 is impossible? That's what it sounds like to me...he explains what it says, then says "God will not allow this." So I am kind of confused... |
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"I'm going on! There's no giving up in this fight. I'm going on 'til my faith has turned to sight. I have fixed my eyes on Christ, He's the Anchor of my life; in the power of His might, I'm going on!"
"I tried to climb the mountains of this life, but failed; thinking only of myself and my own gain. But the Shepherd came and found me on the cliffs of sin, and from that moment life has never been the same."
~Deena |
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2004 12:22 am |
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| xaueious |
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I always thought that the Bride of Christ was the church...
and we are the church |
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I drop by once in a while... |
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2004 12:36 am |
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| Mikalee |
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DOH, sorry guys, I just got LOTR dvd special edition delivered to me, so I couldn't resist watching it! haha what a lame excuse! Anyway, I promise to reply properly tomorrow!
| xaueious wrote: | I always thought that the Bride of Christ was the church...
and we are the church |
Unfortunately most people think this, though there is not one verse in the Bible stating it. |
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2004 12:43 am |
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| He'sMyEverything |
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| Mikalee wrote: | | DOH, sorry guys, I just got LOTR dvd special edition delivered to me, so I couldn't resist watching it! haha what a lame excuse! Anyway, I promise to reply properly tomorrow! |
HEY!!!
I was waiting on your reply, man!!!!
But that's ok...I suppose...have fun with your movie.  |
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"I'm going on! There's no giving up in this fight. I'm going on 'til my faith has turned to sight. I have fixed my eyes on Christ, He's the Anchor of my life; in the power of His might, I'm going on!"
"I tried to climb the mountains of this life, but failed; thinking only of myself and my own gain. But the Shepherd came and found me on the cliffs of sin, and from that moment life has never been the same."
~Deena |
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2004 11:54 am |
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| Mikalee |
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| He'sMyEverything wrote: | | Mikalee wrote: |
"If They Shall Fall Away..." (Heb 6:4-6)(Just for you Deena )
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But I have a question: Is the man who wrote that saying that what is refered to in Hebrews 6 is impossible? That's what it sounds like to me...he explains what it says, then says "God will not allow this." So I am kind of confused... |
No...the last paragraph is:
And doing this, a Christian would be subjecting God's Son to the same type humiliation and shame which He experienced at Calvary. The expression, "crucify to themselves," is actually explained by the remainder of the verse "put [expose] him to an open shame." It is subjecting the world's coming Ruler to humiliation and shame through the one "in Christ" turning from that which lies out ahead and focusing his attention back on the present world system under the incumbent ruler, Satan.
And this is something which God will not allow.
The sentence "And this is something which God will not allow" is referring to the last paragraph (hence the 'and'). Meaning, God will not allow His Son to be put to shame and humiliation by allowing those (Christians) who once had a mature understanding of Jesus' Kingship/Priesthood in the time to come to come back into the same position as they once were. (I.e. it IS possible for the Christian to lose their GOAL and purpose - such as Israel leaving Egypt but NOT entering the promised land [type] - which is the Throne for Christians [antitype]).
Don't forget this sentence in the middle:
Though the Christian may later change his mind about the matter (as the Israelites did), God would not change His mind (as in the type). The Christian, like the Israelites, would be overthrown on the right side of the blood but on the wrong side of the goal of his calling.
The blood of Christ is not without effect (i.e. they will not go to hell), but they will miss their calling (the Throne). |
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2004 12:28 pm |
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| Mikalee |
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| He'sMyEverything wrote: | | Mikalee wrote: | As I just said in the other topic we're discussing, you're missing a couple of major points of mine. I'm anxious to answer but I won't have time till later today.
In the meantime, think about this, is it possible for Jesus not to know ANYONE? (Considering He is Omniscient?). Therefore that "I do not know you" must be relative. Anywho, I'll add more later... |
Hmmm...I don't agree with that. I think it is obvious that when Jesus talks about knowing someone He is talking about having communion with them. I don't think it is relative at all...
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Jesus saying He only knows His own IS relative (i.e. what you are saying is also relative - since Jesus Knows ALL). I understand your point, I just want you to understand that it IS a relative statement. Now, whether that relativity is for All Christians or some, that is what we're trying to figure out - in either case, it is relative though. |
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2004 12:51 pm |
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| Mikalee |
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| He'sMyEverything wrote: | | Mikalee wrote: | | "'Lord, Lord, open for us,' and He will answer and say to you, "I do not know you, where you are from,' 26) then you will begin to say, "We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.' 27) But He will say, "I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity...'" |
1) Jesus will not tell a Christian He doesn't know them.
Why?:
If you are a Christian, you are a child of God; you belong to Jesus and
are a New Creature in Christ.
Doesn't Christ KNOW us when we are saved? And when we are walking
in His light?
If He does, then by saying that it is Christians He is talking about here
you are calling Him a liar.
2) Just because they say "we ate and drank..." etc. doesn't mean they
are Christians. Are those Jesus talks about in Matthew 7:22 & 23
Christians?
3) Christians cannot be "workers of iniquity." How could that be possible?
We are saved from our iniquities and we are made New Creatures!! We live
for God, not for ourselves and Satan anymore!! I don't understand
how anyone would say Christians can be "workers of iniquity"; please explain this to me... |
You know what's interesting (that I just realized)? You think I'm saying drastic things by saying that Jesus will tell lukewarm Christians "I do not know you" at His judgement seat and will send them to the Outer Darkness (which is not a pleasant place) for 1000 years (and they miss the Marriage supper of the Lamb). Yet, you say that lukewarm Christians are going to hell and that is somehow less drastic?!?!?
The only difference is that you don't call lukewarm Christians, Christians - and I do. For the sake of argument, let's forget names and titles. Let's make 3 groups of people. The first are unsaved people altogether (never accepted Christ) - let's call these guys Group A (witty huh?). The second group are people who HAVE accepted Christ but never really matured from children (teknon) to sons (huios). I.e. They either backslid, or just have a 'normal Christian life' where they go to Church on a weekly basis but are not daily dying to themselves so that Christ can grow in them - this will be Group B. Finally Group C will be the Christians that DO overcome the world in Christ by allowing themselves to be conformed to His image.
Ok, so we have
Group A (whose future we agree on)
Group B (which is who I'll be talking about) and
Group C (which are the ones I already spoke of as being the Bride of Christ - or overcomers).
Alright, so the topic is what happens to Group B (whether or not you call them Christian). Although, there are 2 subgroups within this group. Those who no longer consider themselves Christian (they have consciously decided they DO NOT WANT Christ or have anything to do with Him) - group B1, and those who still consider themselved Christian, but they do not allow God to work them into maturity (most likely this is NOT a conscious choice, but a 'drowsiness' of the Spirtual realm - I would venture to say a large majority of Christians fit into this category, as I did for years) - Group B2.
In the other topic (doctines of the devil) where I broke down these groups, you said:
| He'sMyEverything in another topic wrote: | | personally think that if we see this happening, or we think we do, we have a duty as Christians to be a witness to the person and try to help them. |
And OF COURSE I agree with that! No matter what situation anybody is in, it is ALWAYS our duty - nay, pleasure - to talk to them or with them about Christ and His plans for us! When did I say we shouldn't?? I said I wasn't going to talk about what happens to them in the future because I did not know (if they are saved or not). Also, I said I don't know anyone that downright refused Christ after being saved, but I DO know of thousands of Christians who fall in group B2.
...I'm starting a new post |
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2004 2:44 pm |
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| Mikalee |
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update: the post I am writing is turning into a book! lol Someone better read it once it's finally done!  |
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